Curse

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

SR is overpowered, yes. However reducing it to your proposal will pretty much kill Minion Masters. SR is pretty much solely balanced around minions.
I do not think you fully appreciate the difference between 3 triggers in 15 seconds and 1 in 5 seconds, or perhaps the difference between 1 in 10 and 2 in 20.

Ok, fine, how about twice every 15 seconds?

Sir Cusfreak · Jan 14, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I'm all for major mechanics changes in Primary attributes, and the idea of PvE/PvP split for primary lines is a good one.

The exact details can be worked out, but on a basic level I definitely /sign.

Some of the suggestions here are good, some need some tweaking, but overall, I say good call.

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 14, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

Strength: Add the armor penetration to all attacks, not just attack skills. Bonus damage from skills is already armor-ignorning, so really, you'd just be giving armor penetration to the base weapon damage from auto-attacks.

Thiiiiis! <3

Also, the AP on energy storage is mixed. They need it, but not on ES. meanwhile, Intensity sits in the corner all "Me, please?"

J I L T · Jan 14, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Cover enchants (remember those?), or spike the necro / mesmer first.

AoE damage? Spread out. This shouldn't even be an issue.

It's like you're actively rejecting the idea of making the game require a bit of thought. There are already bosses like this in the game, such as Lushivahr the Invoker; the bonus armour penetration would simply help turn otherwise unthreatening bosses into ones like this, which is a good thing.

Skills that remove multiple enchantments remember those? I'm opposed to the idea of giving ele bosses the ability to wipe a party faster than dhuum, mallyx, urgoz and kanaxia. And jacking up boss damage doesn't add anymore thought because all the counters you gave are exactly what everyone already does. Spread out? Ok fair enough but wait people use h/h for a lot of content because surprisingly you can't always find people. But you're right if you have a full team of people and/or if everything goes exactly according to plan you can easily deal with an ele boss with armor penetrating spells. Plus cracked armor can be applied with core skills so there is no reason to change a primary so eles can see bigger numbers when the solution is staring people in the face. But I'm done debating this because it simply won't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Because mesmers are generally mechanically inferior.

And no, it's not ridiculous. At least not compared to some of the other stuff out there. Even with this, VoR would barely be better than SS (and then only against casters), and diversion still wouldn't be great because it is single target.

How exactly are they mechanically inferior? And even if they are it isn't by a huge margin if the mesmer henchmen are perfectly viable. Also ss and vor might be similar but they're from two different classes so they aren't really interchangable. Plus vor is aoe if the target dies your hex is still doing damage to something unlike ss.

End · Jan 14, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Plus vor is aoe if the target dies your hex is still doing damage to something unlike ss.

This is more what makes them hard to compare not different classes. but this isn't a ss v. vor thread soo I'll shush on that and say

/signed for PvP/PvE Primary split

I think a little more work and thought needs to go into the exact details though...while I agree with some of your ideas...and love the ES idea (I am an ele at heart...) It would be OP in my opinion I agree with the idea...I just think there may be better ways to deal with the issues that eles have damagewise.

Lariv · Jan 14, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Soul Reaping - For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a non-Spirit creature near you dies. You may only gain Energy in this way twice per 15 seconds. (we all know why)

I'm fine with this, but it is a very big nerf to one of the only reasons Necromancers are used at all, in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Fast Casting - Fast Casting decreases the casting time of your Spells. Additionally, each rank in this attribute decreases your Signet activation times by 3%. Also, the recharge times of your mesmer skills are reduced. (this would go a long way to making mesmers more viable in PvE; recharge times would be reduced using the same formula that determines reduced cast times)

Doesn't fix the problem of Mesmers. It's not their primary that is awful, it's the way their skills are used in PvE. They have no true PvE skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Mysticism - You gain 1 energy per rank of Mysticism whenever an enchantment ends on you. Additionally, your attacks steal 1 health per rank of Mysticism. (gives dervishes a much-needed offensive buff to help them compete with warriors and assassins, while giving them a slight defensive boost that they also desperately need)

You might not realize how imba this really is. Patient Spirit might help you. . . Cast it for 5e, assume 12 Mysticism, and regain 12e. That's a net gain of 7e.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Energy Storage - For each rank of Energy Storage, your maximum energy increases by 3, and your skills gain 2% armor penetration per rank of Energy Storage. (will go a long way towards making Elementalists more viable as nukers)

So 26% armor penetration? I'm not sure how this adds up with other armor penetration skills, but you could, theoretically, have a 51% armor penetration skill. Sure, it'd give Elementalists some damage, but I think it's too much.

reaper with no name · Jan 15, 2010, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by yamazaru

I'm fine with this, but it is a very big nerf to one of the only reasons Necromancers are used at all, in my opinion.

Doesn't fix the problem of Mesmers. It's not their primary that is awful, it's the way their skills are used in PvE. They have no true PvE skills.

You might not realize how imba this really is. Patient Spirit might help you. . . Cast it for 5e, assume 12 Mysticism, and regain 12e. That's a net gain of 7e.

So 26% armor penetration? I'm not sure how this adds up with other armor penetration skills, but you could, theoretically, have a 51% armor penetration skill. Sure, it'd give Elementalists some damage, but I think it's too much.

The skills that have armor penetration tend to be in air magic, which is usually single target.

Necromancers would still be the best class for minions (higher death magic) and MoP (higher curses), at the very least.

Oh, shit. I meant to have the energy gain for mysticism be the same as it is now. Thank you for pointing that out. *runs off to fix*

Lariv · Jan 15, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The skills that have armor penetration tend to be in air magic, which is usually single target.

Necromancers would still be the best class for minions (higher death magic) and MoP (higher curses), at the very least.

Oh, shit. I meant to have the energy gain for mysticism be the same as it is now. Thank you for pointing that out. *runs off to fix*

For the Ele, I meant Air Magic. But I'm still thinking that it could be a little bit overboard. Especially for some of the Fire Magic. Perhaps make it 0.5% armor penetration.

The problem with the Necro fix would mean that they wouldn't be able to run their bars efficiently. The way you have it would mean that Necro would be restricted down to MM only. Take Mesmer, for example. I like to cast fast, so I pick primary Mesmer to fast cast. Say I want mad energy in PvE without having to waste a couple of skill slots, I take Necro.

Your welcome for the Dervish point-out!

Shayne Hawke · Jan 15, 2010, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Good lord, what a silly idea. Skill splits were already bad enough, attribute splits would just be bonkers.

X Dr Pepper X · Jan 15, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Too controversial. The real problem is attributes being useless due to poorly made skills and concepts- tactics, wilderness survival, illusion magic, motivation, etc. Attributes need to be made well.

For example

Mysticism: Gain 1 energy per 4 ranks, 1 health per 1 rank when any stance, enchant, or weapon spell ends. Forms, basic enchants, energy management, self heals are a part of this attribute.

Earth Prayers: Defensive/tanking skills with dmg mitigation, dodging, weakness, blinding, and some AoE damage. Defensive and offensive tanking.

Wind Prayers: Needs to be totally renovated. Maybe a healer that can compete with monks. Or single targetable party member buffs that trigger on things like crits, dodges, misses and offer unique things like IAS, IMS, degen, life stolen, regen, healing, energy reduction, etc.

Scythe: Hit stuff.

Instead of poorly made skills thrown in random attributes, skills would have common uses. And not every skill needs to be made viable, they'res just too many to try and balance.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 15, 2010, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

Skills that remove multiple enchantments remember those?

There are five such skills in the game. How many Elementalist bosses have an attached mob with one of the enemies carrying such a skill?

And even in such a situation, you can simply make sure that particular enemy is your second target (or first, if the group has no healer) making it unlikely that they'll get it off more than twice (at most).

Quote:

Originally Posted by J I L T

And jacking up boss damage doesn't add anymore thought because all the counters you gave are exactly what everyone already does. Spread out? Ok fair enough but wait people use h/h for a lot of content because surprisingly you can't always find people.

Flags, brah.

What I'm sensing here is that there are people who object to the idea of any change that makes Hard Mode, you know... hard.

reaper with no name · Jan 16, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Of course, these people are also forgetting Pain Inverter. With that, the extra damage dealt by monster Elementalists would become a weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Thiiiiis! <3

Also, the AP on energy storage is mixed. They need it, but not on ES. meanwhile, Intensity sits in the corner all "Me, please?"

The problem with buffing Strength that way is that it would make scythe warriors do even more damage, defeating the purpose of the mysticism change.

Unless...The autoattack AP only affected warrior weapons. Yeah, that would work.

Strength: For each rank of Strength, you gain 1% armor penetration on attack skills and 1% armor penetration on normal attacks with warrior weapons.

As for Intensity, I don't deny that it would also work. However, skill changes are outside the scope of this suggestion.

Also, Mesmers. How about having FC affect aftercast delays instead of recharge times? Since the constant aftercast delay currently limits the benefits of high FC, making it affect that as well should encourage Mesmers to invest more into it.

Tenebrae · Jan 16, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

What I'm sensing here is that there are people who object to the idea of any change that makes Hard Mode, you know... hard.

Are you serious or just drunk ?

The existance of counters to something overpowered doesnt make it less overpowered , for example non spell ench removals < SF. Its just like changing Decapitate to :
Lose all energy and all adrenaline and you deal +600 unblockable damage. If target doesnt die , you regain half of your max energy and 1.... 7 adrenaline.

Following your logic it would be fine because .... you can blind target , ye sure.

Energy Storage has nothing to do with AP , there are already some Ele bosses that kills 60-70 armor chars in 1-2 hits , adding AP to them is just a nonsense excuse for "i want my ele to deal more damage for free in HM" .

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 16, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Energy Storage has nothing to do with AP , there are already some Ele bosses that kills 60-70 armor chars in 1-2 hits , adding AP to them is just a nonsense excuse for "i want my ele to deal more damage for free in HM" .

1. I don't use my elementalist and still wouldn't if this change went through.
2. But making these bosses stronger is what I see as the primary benefit, because it helps make HM more difficult and such bosses require a bit of planning and build adjustment.

UnChosen · Jan 17, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

1. I don't use my elementalist and still wouldn't if this change went through.
2. But making these bosses stronger is what I see as the primary benefit, because it helps make HM more difficult and such bosses require a bit of planning and build adjustment.

HM is already far harder than necessary for the vast majority of the player base. The SF nerf is more than enough, don't chase away any more of the people I play with, tyvm.

If anything they should remove the ridiculous armor from monsters in HM instead of adding extra penetration to ele spells. Just add more HP instead so that it doesn't become too easy.

reaper with no name · Jan 17, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

<--- has suggested that very thing before in the past, only to have it go down in flames with absolutely zero support from anyone.

Shriketalon · Jan 17, 2010, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Wind Prayers: Needs to be totally renovated. Maybe a healer that can compete with monks. Or single targetable party member buffs that trigger on things like crits, dodges, misses and offer unique things like IAS, IMS, degen, life stolen, regen, healing, energy reduction, etc.

Here's a thought.

If Earth Prayers is in-their-faces offensive tanking, make Wind Prayers into a Point Blank Buffing attribute.

So you might have Attacker's Insight, which reduces the energy cost for your attack skills and all attack skills of adjacent allies. Or Guiding Hands, which makes the next attack for you and all adjacent allies unblockable. Healing, likewise, for whomever is nearby, etc.

Makes the dervish able to serve a support role while still on the frontline, by doing his normal frontline work. His focus would be much more concentrated than a paragon, but still not single targeting, thus giving him sort of an Aura role.

End · Jan 17, 2010, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

HM is already far harder than necessary for the vast majority of the player base. The SF nerf is more than enough, don't chase away any more of the people I play with, tyvm.

If anything they should remove the ridiculous armor from monsters in HM instead of adding extra penetration to ele spells. Just add more HP instead so that it doesn't become too easy.

Yes the ridiculous armor should be reduced to help reduce the dependence on armor ignoring damage. However to make up for it hard mode needs to be made much much harder in another aspect. While this would only make sections of hm harder I would support it still...

Reverend Dr · Jan 17, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

I honestly don't care at all about PvE, but would something like this actually make the game more attractive?

Reformed · Jan 17, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I honestly don't care at all about PvE, but would something like this actually make the game more attractive?

How could it? Half the professions get no changes. Of those that do most are inconsequential and supposed to be buffs, I guess, except Necro which is an obvious nerf. The problem with Necros in PvE begins and ends with heroes. Rather than further gutting a primary with an even clunkier timer all that needs to be done is set a profession limit on party formation. No more 1+3 or 2+6 setups and it becomes a non-issue.